Gooner
10 October 2017 06:33:42

Originally Posted by: tallyho_83 


Here with the latest on Siberian snow cover - Some early snow looks like it has fallen in Norway and higher elevations of Alps and Balkan's!?



 Not a bad start, given that it's only 2nd week of October.


 



As I don't live there I don't really give a damn mate , it means naff all in isolation


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Stormchaser
11 October 2017 21:17:07


Well, GloSea5 is simply screaming 'runaway global warming; don't even bother chasing cold and snow this winter!'


Ha okay - it's not all down to climate change of course;



Given the background of fairly low solar activity and an easterly QBO, I wonder what's driving such a strong positive NAO signal in the model? I first thought SST patterns but they're not really in the right configuration this time around (first winter in several that this has been the case).


I sure hope the model is not seeing an unusual wave-train from Indonesia in the style of winter 2013-14.


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Solar Cycles
11 October 2017 21:36:54

Originally Posted by: Stormchaser 



Well, GloSea5 is simply screaming 'runaway global warming; don't even bother chasing cold and snow this winter!'


Ha okay - it's not all down to climate change of course;



Given the background of fairly low solar activity and an easterly QBO, I wonder what's driving such a strong negative NAO signal in the model? I first thought SST patterns but they're not really in the right configuration this time around (first winter in several that this has been the case).


I sure hope the model is not seeing an unusual wave-train from Indonesia in the style of winter 2013-14.


Its not worth the bandwidth really. It was way out this time last year for winter and it’s just one of many other crap long range models which whilst fun to look at are  pretty worthless in terms of painting a reasonable accurate picture for the season ahead.

tallyho_83
11 October 2017 23:00:53

Originally Posted by: Solar Cycles 


Its not worth the bandwidth really. It was way out this time last year for winter and it’s just one of many other crap long range models which whilst fun to look at are  pretty worthless in terms of painting a reasonable accurate picture for the season ahead.



 


I agree - I mean apart from the odd blue splodge off the coast of western Canada - it's hardly likely that the whole of the northern hemisphere will be above or way above average for 3 months come on!!


Also there was the flip from an El Nino to La Nina - albeit weak so the probability was wrong in the Equatorial pacific region too!



 


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Stormchaser
13 October 2017 09:41:53

The model does seem to get carried away with trends in equatorial Pacific sea surface temperatures, exaggerating changes. I recall it depicting an even stronger peak to the super El Nino than was observed. To be fair to it, the seasonal ECM did the same so it appears to be something models in general struggle with.


Considering both this and the incredibly positive NAO signal it has and the proximity to a 'pool' of slight negative SST anomalies in the N. Atlantic surrounded by positive ones, I wonder if the model has too much feedback of the SSTs onto storm formation and back again, leading to an error that amplifies more and more?


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tallyho_83
14 October 2017 23:39:07
Found this forecast interesting:



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Andy Woodcock
15 October 2017 08:48:13
Don't think I have ever known a autumn where all model forecast are so sure of a mild, wet winter.

You normally get a few outliers that point to a colder solution, not this year everything points to Mega Mild.

Its like the game is lost before its even started like England in the world cup.

I doubt it will be so clear cut, weather never is, and as for the great Glosea5 I am still waiting for the cold December it was so confidently predicting at the end of November 2016!

If it can't predict 3 weeks out my faith in its 3 month forecasts are somewhat dented.

Andy
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johncs2016
15 October 2017 09:15:57

Originally Posted by: Andy Woodcock 

Don't think I have ever known a autumn where all model forecast are so sure of a mild, wet winter.

You normally get a few outliers that point to a colder solution, not this year everything points to Mega Mild.

Its like the game is lost before its even started like England in the world cup.

I doubt it will be so clear cut, weather never is, and as for the great Glosea5 I am still waiting for the cold December it was so confidently predicting at the end of November 2016!

If it can't predict 3 weeks out my faith in its 3 month forecasts are somewhat dented.

Andy


If you watched Gavin P.'s second video of yesterday from last night though, you will have seen that the Chinese model is going for a fairly cold winter with February coming out as the coldest month. In fact, that model has high pressure over Scandinavia as early as November although at that time, it would be more likely to be bringing mild winds from the SE, rather than anything all that cold. This is only an outlier though, but it is one which is pointing to a colder solution just now.


As you have said though, all of the other models are pointing to a mild winter despite the fact that we now have an easterly QBO, and the only question which is arising from that is whether we end up getting a really wet and stormy winter such as what we had in 2013/14 and 2015/16, or whether we end up getting that 'if only it were summer' scenario which we had last winter with high pressure over the near continent wafting up some really mild air from the south (which is kind of like the sort of set-up which we have just now, ahead of the upcoming arrival of ex-Hurricane Ophelia).


My concern here is what is happening in the Atlantic. If we look back over the last few years, we had that cold blob which was probably responsible for causing that cooler than average summer which we had in 2015. The effects of that probably haven't been as great in the winter, but there has been a few instances of cold zonality over the last few years with even a wind from the west or south-west bringing showers which briefly fall as snow, even in this part of the world here in Edinburgh.


That happened because the air mass was actually a returning polar maritime air mass which actually had its origins somewhere around Greenland. That air mass would have went further south where it would have been warmed up a bit, before approaching this part of the world from the west or south-west. My gut feeling is that the colder than average waters of the Atlantic at that time, might have helped to reduce the warming of that air mass by enough ensure that the showers were still able to take on a wintry nature even here.


At the moment, the water in that part of the Atlantic Ocean is a lot warmer which means that any returning polar maritime air mass is likely to warmed up more than what has been the case in recent winters, and that would therefore result in any snow showers in that air mass being more confined to higher ground than in recent years. Those warm waters are also likely to promote low pressure which to me, is more likely to signal a wetter and stormier winter than what we had last year. Finally, the fact that all of the colder than average waters are to the SW of the UK means that this is likely to promote high pressure in that area, and the position of that would seem to indicate a stronger Azores High and therefore, a positive NAO.


From that, I can sort of see where the models are coming from by predicting a mild winter ahead and in fact, the Chinese model is currently the only one which is going against that grain.


 


The north of Edinburgh, usually always missing out on snow events which occur not just within the rest of Scotland or the UK, but also within the rest of Edinburgh.
Tim A
15 October 2017 09:27:21
A glimmer of hope is that the number of days the sun has been without a sunspot is at its highest level this year since 2009 - as recently posted by Kevin in the Climate forum. Whether that will make any difference who knows.
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roger63
15 October 2017 10:34:17

Originally Posted by: Tim A 

A glimmer of hope is that the number of days the sun has been without a sunspot is at its highest level this year since 2009 - as recently posted by Kevin in the Climate forum. Whether that will make any difference who knows.


Tim looking at the monthly sunspot numbers so far this year the average  is 24.6 the highest month was September at 43.6 the lowest 17.7 earlier in the year,


We have a long way to go before the solar minimum and before reaching (hopefully) the single figure values at the last solar minimum in 2008& 2009.Then single figure monthly ran from April 2008 to November 2009 with a zero value for August 2009.


Does  solar minimum make a difference?Well the 2008/9 minimum was followed by the cold winters of 2009/10 and 2010/11.


More generally research at the University of Reading suggests that there is a tendency for winters around the solar minimum to be more blocked and therefore colder that the average.


So our best chance of winter cold maybe at the end of the decade 


 

johncs2016
15 October 2017 10:42:04

Just noticed something else from Gavin P.'s video this morning, that the cold water to the SW of the UK seems to have shrunk to the point of almost having disappeared altogether so maybe, that might not generate such a strong Azores High after all. That in itself might offer a slight glimmer of hope in terms of being able to avoid a positive NAO, but that just means that we now have what is just a generally warm Atlantic Ocean which is just going to make the prevailing westerlies, that bit milder than what they would normally be.

It is also going to be interesting to what effect, the really warm waters to the NE of the UK are likely to have since that is something which has never happened to that extent before, at least since 1982 as pointed out by Gavin P. this morning. To me, I would be concerned that if we were to get what would normally be a cold wind from the NE that would normally bring snow showers to here, those showers would then just be more likely to fall as rain or sleet here with any snow being confined to high ground as a result of that air mass being warmed up that bit more than normal, as a result of moving over those really warm waters. That in turn, would dampen our chances of a cold winter even further as that would mean that what would normally be a cold setup, ends up not being so cold on this occasion.

On the other hand though, it could promote low pressure to our NE and more of a NNW influence which would then bring a better chance of cold weather, so only time will tell on that one.I think that it is good news that the solar activity is very low just now, but I think that it might be a few years yet before we actually see any benefit from that in terms us getting a cold winter, especially since we haven't actually reached the solar minimum just yet. That means that I don't really see that really low solar activity doing much for us right now and has been mentioned on so many occasions, it is actually the period when we are starting to come out on the other side of the solar minimum, that we tend to have our best chance of getting a cold winter. Having said that though, that doesn't necessarily mean that we won't get a cold winter from that and so like everything else, only time will tell on that one.


The north of Edinburgh, usually always missing out on snow events which occur not just within the rest of Scotland or the UK, but also within the rest of Edinburgh.
Iceman
16 October 2017 02:26:51
I would like to highlight that last winter delivered easterlies to the uk late last winter albeit not very cold ones. Why? Perhaps it was low solar activity beginning to show its hand. If this hypothesis is true, this effect will be stronger this winter.
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Brian Gaze
16 October 2017 07:16:44
One issue is the background warmth around the globe. Think of getting a cold winter in the UK as hitting the bullseye on a dartboard. The bullseye is still on the board but it has become smaller.
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roger63
17 October 2017 09:45:10

Originally Posted by: Brian Gaze 

One issue is the background warmth around the globe. Think of getting a cold winter in the UK as hitting the bullseye on a dartboard. The bullseye is still on the board but it has become smaller.


Cold winters are linked to NAO -ve winters(correlation with CET 0.66).


However the incidence of NAO +ve winters is higher than NAO - ve Since winter 94/95 a 60:40 split  broadly 2:1.So another example of how the chance of hitting the bulllseye of winter cold has the odds stacked against it.

Shropshire
17 October 2017 18:14:11

Still a way to go before we can have a better idea of the winter but the portents are poor from the overall signals, long range models and the elephant in the room that is the last 30 years.


The latter part of each of the last 3 decades have seen some exceptionally mlld months even in the context of the modern era.


 


 


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Gusty
17 October 2017 19:01:33

Expectations for a mild winter have been firmly set this year. This is not a bad thing. 


Anything other than mild should be treated as an unexpected bonus 


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David M Porter
17 October 2017 19:19:50

Originally Posted by: Shropshire 


Still a way to go before we can have a better idea of the winter but the portents are poor from the overall signals, long range models and the elephant in the room that is the last 30 years.


The latter part of each of the last 3 decades have seen some exceptionally mlld months even in the context of the modern era.


 


 



That was true of both the 80's and 90's but I'm not so sure it was the case at the end of the noughties. Winter 2007/08 was mild overall but not exceptionally so from what I recall, but the following two winters were both colder than average, notably so in the case of 2009/10. Winter 2008/09, from what I remember, also brought the first notable snowfalls to parts of southern England since February 1991 if I'm not mistaken.


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Northern Sky
17 October 2017 19:40:32

Originally Posted by: Gusty 


Expectations for a mild winter have been firmly set this year. This is not a bad thing. 


Anything other than mild should be treated as an unexpected bonus 



Why is that? Given a hopefully EQBO and fairly quiet sun aren't some of the big background drivers more favourable this winter? I know the seasonal models are predicting mild but I'm totally unconvinced by them regardless of what they show.


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Andy Woodcock
17 October 2017 23:09:25
Did all these models or any of them forsee the cold winters of 2010 and 2011?

If they did I don't remember although I do remember the MetO Model clearly predicting a mild winter in 2010, this coming after their BBQ summer prediction of 2009.

Not saying that this winter will be even average never mind cold, just making the point that models rarely predict cold winters and we have had 4 in the past 9 years.

Andy


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David M Porter
18 October 2017 08:23:12

Originally Posted by: Northern Sky 


 


Why is that? Given a hopefully EQBO and fairly quiet sun aren't some of the big background drivers more favourable this winter? I know the seasonal models are predicting mild but I'm totally unconvinced by them regardless of what they show.


Save



Indeed. As Andy pointed out further up this page the other day, the Glosea5 model as late as the latter part of last November seemed to be indicating that December was likely to be a cold month, and in the end it couldn't have been more wrong.


Lenzie, Glasgow

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